hello, i have not been very active on this forum, but my project '65 skylark 2door sedan has been has been on hold while i build up some funds for parts. the car is currantly a "310" wildcat 2bbl V8, backed up by a turbo 400 auto from a '71 pontiac. i have been wanting to find a 401 or 425 nailhead to eventually drop in.
my question is: will a 401 or 425 from a 64- 65 riviara or wildcat just " drop in", or am i gonna need different exaust manifolds? is there anything else that might get in the way? i know its a broad question, but ANY info is greatly appreciated, im always looking to learn more about my car amp; other buick models.
another question. if i were to get a wildcat parts car and it were a stick, would the cluch petal assembly work in my automatic car? would a wildcat petal assembly be the same as a skylark petal assembly? i have a T-10 out of a 65 GS that i would not mind swaping into my car, but i lack the extra petal to do so.
thanks for the help!
ok i have basically the same car with the same engine. i was gonna do that swap my self until i talked to one of my friends who advised me against it because you have to change cross members and you do have to get different manifolds. i believe you will also have an issue with steering and brake clearance. What i'm doing is i got a 340 out of a 67 skylark gs and im gonna build it. when im done it should be about 400lbs of torque and close to 300 horsepower.
jeez, a crossmember swap? makes me glad my lil 300 runs so good, haha. im still probobly gonna serch for a nailhead, caus i doubt im gonna find a 340 car. but it does sound like a good backup plan to me, if i do find a 340 for cheap. thanks for the info.
this brings a new addition to my question: crossmembers! would a crossmember out of a '65 or '66 GS work in my car? what about one from an olds 442, or a midsized pontiac? or, dare i say it... a... chevelle (ack!!)
all you need is a rear sump oil pan and pickup gs exhaust manifolds or headers
also it needs to be a sp400 trans going into the car or you need a adapter everything but the oil pan you can buy new
you may even it now
but a bbb would be much cheaper if you wanted that depends on what you want
also you will need gs car motor mounts you can build them out of a piece of 1/4 inch steel though
also a 65 and 66 share the same frame so it would swap
but like i said you dont have to change crossmembers you may need to move it back a little i cant remember but no need to change it
I have done that swap in the past,,,,
You will need all the stuff from a 65 GS... the rad. , the exhaust manifold s,,, the motor mount plates that bolt to the engine and the mount pads that go on the frame, and the rubber mounts that fit in between,,, You can use a 4 speed manual, or a 2 speed auto, or a 3 speed th 400, the cross member can either be modified or you can do like i did and just fab one out of new steel,,, not that hard... you will need to fab up a good exhaust system, recommend using the stock exhaust manifolds ported to the heads and 21/2'' pipes,,,, you will need a rear sump pan and oil pick up from a 65 GS or a 59 big car... the trans linkage will work,,,, the starter will have to be for a 65 gs.... [short nose] The drive shaft will have to have the yolk in front changed and be modified to be solid instead of vulcanized 2 piece, the torque will shuck it out otherwise, also you will need some heavier front springs, heavy duty shocks all the way around, and air lift air bags inside the rear springs to handel the wheel hop that you will get with the increased power.... the air cleaner will have to be changed to a large 4 bbl type,,, recommend a posi, because peg legged you will fry the rt. rear tire...
If you are carefull and do it right this is a swap that will hold up and is a lot of fun to drive,,,, The only other change that i would make is this,,,, a 425...
My turn...
You do not need the change the frames crossmember, but you do need a rear sump oil pan to clear the stock one. Rear sump pans were used on 65-66 GS and 57-61 364/401. You can buy a hipo oil pump pickup from Carmen Faso or Russ Martin. $150.
The GS has a reinforced frame along the side rails, but the stock Skylark frame will suffice.
Engine Mounts: You'll need a 65-66 GS setup, or fabricate some. The plates and rubber mounts are easy, there are posts here on those. You would have to fabricate the frame mounts by copying the 65-66 GS design. I have a local guy that was making repo's....for 2 years, he's been saying they're 'almost done'
Exhaust: Find 65-66 GS exhaust manifolds or buy headers from TA Performance.
4 speed setup: The Wildcat pedals and linkage are different than the Skylark GS. Easiest solution is to use a hydraulic throwout bearing. Pedals from a 64-66 A-body will work, but the rest of the linkage is different than the Buicks.
Radiator: Nailhead Inlet/Outlets are on different sides than other GM's. A universal alum radiator for a Ford fits pretty well. About $200 from Summit/Jegs.
Your 65 rad support will work IF it is the later one with the cross-flow radiator. If your rad has tanks on the top/bottom, it's the wrong support.
Driveshaft: GS automatic cars used the driveshaft with the rubber sleeve. The 4 speed cars had a driveshaft without the sleeve. I found one from a 71-72 LeSabre or Electra that fits perfect!
Front coil springs should be swapped for new ones to handle the weight. Moog #6033 matches the 66 GS specs.
The swap is possible, but you need to find some of those unique parts, or make them yourself.
Nothing looks better than a Nailhead under the hood!
A few other items you'll need to address are:
1) Battery relocation to driver's side, plus new cables, including the starter junction block / horn relay. This also means you need the starter cable amp; smaller wires to the solenoid from the junction block.
2) The lights amp; engine wiring harnesses are different between the GS (401) and the smaller engines, at least on my 66 they were. You'll likely have to custom build or rewire the harnesses. Check out the differences on the wiring schematic for the '65.
3) If you use headers, you'll likely need a mini-starter. Tom Telesco's works well.
4) If you plan to connect the trans cooler lines, plan on re-doing those. I'm using an external cooler but I still haven't found a good solution for the lines and how I've got them routed (the headers amp; oil filter amp; everything else seems to be in the way!)
BTW, I used the ST300 trans crossmember for the ST400; it had to go rearward almost 5 1/2 inches. Used an angle shim to help it fit the frame better and redrilled the holes in the frame. You will need to get a trans support bushing for the 400 unless the one from the trans you have in it now will work.
A lot of changes to accomplish what you want to do, but it is fun.....
Steve
wow, guys, thanks for the great info! im probibly gonna have to spend some time gathering the stuff i need, but thats ok, because my little 310 runs strong, and now i know what to look for!
GSman66, the car alwredy has the turbo 400 auto installed, my st300 was toast, and the swap was pretty much how you described it.
wkillGS, thanks for the good info on the radiator amp; driveshaft amp; oil pump.
doc, thanks for the info on where to find a rear sump pan, as well as the suspention upgrades needed. ive got a 12 bolt posi out of a chevelle out in my backyard, that should work, right? i was lucky to find an nos buick "445 nailhead" aircleaner housing at a swapmeet for $50, now i just need the nailhead to put under it, haha. the cars also got new shocks, im probibly gonna need some better ones for the nailhead, but i know im a step above the factory original GM shocks i pulled out!
and how id love to find a 425, haha. i havent found any yet, but im open to anything!
Originally Posted by skylark65 310and how id love to find a 425, haha. i havent found any yet, but im open to anything!
Contact 'Nailhead' on this Forum. John is here in Pa and did have some engines avail....maybe he still does!
Originally Posted by skylark65 310GSman66, the car alwredy has the turbo 400 auto installed, my st300 was toast, and the swap was pretty much how you described it.
Hope you are aware that your current TH400 tranny will NOT work with a 401 / 425 nailhead; it has a different shaped bellhousing. You need an st400 from 65 - 66 Buick big car (rivi, wildcat...). There's a few mods you would want done to the trans if you have it rebuilt.....
BTW, Please add your name to your posts; I just realized I have no idea as to how to address you when replying..... A lot of us know each other and we like to keep everything friendly and on a first name basis!!
Steve
It isn't hard to see why the GS cars cost more! You will probably be better off buying headers from TA. The GS exhaust manifolds are not easy to find, and are not cheap if and when you do. The rear-sump pan is a bit of a challenge, but they can be found. I needed both the GS right side manifold and the rear-sump pan for my Buick/Chevy truck conversion. Great members of this board bailed me out in both cases. I am constantly astounded by the level of help and knowledge to be found on this site. U gotta Question? The answer's here!
Hey, this 401/st400 just popped up on Craigslist! It's in Phillipsburg, NJ, just across the river from Easton:
pts/1233834347.html
Sounds like deal, so hurry up and get it!
Suggestion;
You can go ahead and do a lot of the mods, to get ready for the nailhead....they will only enhance the car and its performance.... that way you dont have so much to do that it overwhelms you....also dont let the mods to the rear crossmember scare you ,,,, it is fairly easy to do... I fabbed up a crossmember from new stock of rectangular .125 thick mild steel tubing.... Raced the car with that for several years and never had a problem....
walt, thanks so much for the phillipsburg link, just emailed the guy and well see what happens if that falls through, i guess ill contact "nailhead" john.
steve, i really had no idea that the TH400 from that 400 pontiac would not work. that kinda sucks, but i guess thats just one more excuse to do a stick!
oh, my names Ryan, BTW. im 17, and ive had my buick since i was 13 or 14.
thanks again for all the help, everyone, hopefully i can finally get my skylark back togeather for some summer fun
Originally Posted by gsman66Hope you are aware that your current TH400 tranny will NOT work with a 401 / 425 nailhead; it has a different shaped bellhousing. You need an st400 from 65 - 66 Buick big car (rivi, wildcat...). There's a few mods you would want done to the trans if you have it rebuilt.....
BTW, Please add your name to your posts; I just realized I have no idea as to how to address you when replying..... A lot of us know each other and we like to keep everything friendly and on a first name basis!!
Steve
or he can run a adapter but if i went that route id def find a od tranny for it
Ryan, go to the wrenchin secrets section, and read my list of cheap tricks very closely,,,, it will save you some effort and money...
doc, imma gonna go check that out as soon as i finish writing this, im on a budget of whatever i can scrape togeather, so i jump at the chance to save a few dollars.
an update on the nailhead walt posted in phillipsburg, the guy got back to me today, and said he sold it a couple of hours before i contacted him! but... he has another partially dissasembeled and cleaned up 401 that he says is in good shape, needs the cylinder walls honed and new rings. he wants $300, with no trans. if the engine is complete, would you guys say thats a good deal?
Ryan, pard, i absolutely would not talk down to you, but I am going to strongly suggest that before you lay your money down on any engine/trans that you get some one who is really savvy about mechanics to take a good look at the inside of them and make sure that you can use them for your purposes....
make friends with mechanics and parts men,,,, take them to lunch,,, whatever... you will be way ahead of the game.... if there is some one on this board that lives close,,, but be very carefull before you lay your money down.... basicly what you want to find is a nailhead that has not been rebuilt before... but be carefull....
no need to pardon, doc. thats advise to live by. lucky for me, my dad has been wrenchin and tinkerin with everything automotive for the better part of 40 + years, and i could not have asked for a better teacher. my dad grew up in north jersy in the 70s - 80s, and many of his old friends still live in that aerea, and we try to get togeather when we get the chance. my dads one friend has gone on to work swapmeets in the tri state aerea buying and selling GM muscle car stuff, mostly chevelles, camaros, ect, and whenever he comes across something i can use he will set it aside and let me know he has it. my buick actually sat nextdoor to another old friends house, who my dad had not seen in 25+ years, and reunited the two. funny how those things happen.
anyways, my dads goin with if we go to look at this nailhead, scince he knows what to look for, and what to look out for.
ok, an update on my nailhead "adventure", i wound up not buying the dissasembeled nailhead, as the guy had someone looking at it on saturday and i was busey. last night, we got a call from a guy who we had left a note on his door, the guy had at least one '65 riviara in his backyard, sitting for at least 20 years. he called back, and told us he has three riviaras, and 2 of them are riviara gran sports! hees not sure what he wants to do with them as of now, but hes gonna call us back hopefully at the end of the week. seemed like a nice guy.
anyway, im curious to find out what drivetrain a 65 riviara GS would contain ( 401 or 425 ?), and if it would have dual quads or a single 4bbl.
Hi Ryan -
If you are really serious about this swap I have every thing you need:
1963 401Nailhead- fully dis assembled block all original internal parts go with it as well as the heads. Strongly suggest it to be machined and install new cam, pistons, bearing etc (rebuild).
Stock(cast iron) Dual quad manifold (ported by Tom Telesco)
Frame plates amp; mounts from a 66 GS
Rear sump oil pan amp; pick up from a 66 GS
Nail head headers from T/A for skylark (not sure if they will work in a 65)
I am willing to sell it all but I can tell you from expirience (and so can every one else that has chimed in) this stuff dont appear on CL or e-bay on a weekly or even monthly basis so I would put it in the rare catagory. If you are really serious we can talk. . . I am just about 1.5- 2 hours from you. PM me your number if you are truely serious. Just what do I mean when I say serious. . .Have $$$. If you're dreamin, well then I hope it will all be here for you when you want to make it a reality
Originally Posted by skylark65 310anyway, im curious to find out what drivetrain a 65 riviara GS would contain ( 401 or 425 ?), and if it would have dual quads or a single 4bbl.
The 65 RIV GS would be a 425 and could be either a single quad or 2x4. It would also have the tranny you want. It should/could also have a posi. I don't think the posi will fit in the Lark. Those posi's would draw some good ebay $'s to help fund the project. EBAY auction link. Then those GS's could also have the Wood steering wheel and possibly power vents....all saught after options. Then the '65 headlight motors are pretty rare too.
Depending on the shape of the Rivi's you might want to restore one of those.
Rick
Rick, from what the guy said the non- GS riv is the only one thats really restorable. i would like to get all three, get the driveline componints i need, and sell the rest to fund my car / get back the purchase price of the rivs. theyd probibly go as complete parts cars, but i might do a swap meet run with the parts, who knows. thanks for the info!
Anthony, as much as i would like to buy that engine, my budget is super tight, im gonna have to loan money from my parents if i get the rivs, but at least i could sell whats left over amp; repay them. i do really apreciate the offer, though. thanks.
Keep in mind Ryan- I have a 1964 Riviera (and I need some parts) barter is negotiation tool
Let me know if you pick those Rivis up we can do some swaps. I need a nice rear bumper and some other stuff |
Post at 2011-4-22 07:13
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